Hmmmm, I’ve been blogging about this for awhile now.
A SISTER WRITES:
“I’ve noticed in our Muslim communities that there are plenty of single, religious, educated, Muslim sisters, yet there is a great lack of like-minded brothers available for marriage. Thus, we have sisters in their late 20’s and 30’s who desire to get married but cannot find a suitable prospective.”
Why do you think this is the case? Is it due to the Muslim brothers not bothering about the Deen so they are not at par with active, religious sisters? Or do you think it’s a demographical problem? What do you think?
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52 thoughts on “Muslim Guy Shortage!?”
Hate I missed this one as this is a very interesting topic. Did you listen to it?
Yes, it was pretty good. I think it will be posted on the website shortly. The one issue they didn’t address is that many brothers choose to marry non-Muslim women. But they did talk about brothers marrying overseas.
By and large, most of the brothers marrying overseas are arab/asian/african brothers, marrying their home girls. The real issue in my opinion is:
a) too many brothers marrying/partnering non muslim women and it aint just ‘people of the book’ either (although that it ambigious as it is in todays time). These days, the athesit and agonistic ladies get bogged down under ‘people of the book’ title and even pagans as well.
b) not enough practising and educated brothers compared to sisters.
c) the sisters are often are restraint when it comes to marriage on the issues of class, race, culture (due to the walis, most likely the dad).
this is more for AA sisters
d)most of them prefer to marry AA brothers first but the brothers prefer to marry non AA sisters.
e) the amount of educated sisters are more then the brothers and some wish not to marry down, leaving many single AA muslim sisters.
f) too much racism from muslim men against AA black women when it comes to marriage, more specifically arabs, asians and even africans (they dont mind sexing and playing around with black women though). Those same men however hunt down every white (including latina) female converts as soon as shahdah is done.
theres proabably more complex issues at hand as well, but thats my simplified version.
Those are real issues. But I do know a lot of African American males, who go to Morocco or Malaysia to find wives. They like Morocco because Moroccans will marry their daughters to a negro. Also, a lot of AA males want a wife who can help them speak Arabic. In addition, there are a lot of equate acting like an Arab with following the sunnah. Sure, AA sisters can go to Morocco too because there are so many men will see her as a green card ticket out. In integrated masajid, the AA brothers are barely looking at AA sisters. They are all mad that the Arab or Pakistani families don’t want them to marry their daughters. As for me, if someone wants someone because of their race, I’m too good for them. I just feel sorry for women who are being objectified because in the end the men’s intentions weren’t straight.
I suggest she and the rest of the single sisters move to the DC metro area. There are plenty of single, educated and GORGEOUS(yes, if the old man acts us, I have a LIST of potential REPLACEMENTS – to the left, to the left) brothers, as well as others. At the masjid we have FILES of brothers seeking spouses and about 5 single sisters.
Word? My friend was just telling me how masha’Allah the brothas in DC are. Tell them to holla!! I got tons of single friends. We may have to do some match making. 🙂
Yes, I will e-mail you some details when I return insha Allah, as well as info re brothers who take the role of wali as a very serious one.
I work in the DC Metro area and I have no luck so maybe someone in the area can give me some help!! Bascially include me in the matchmaking as well insha’Allah.
Wayfarer, contact Imam Faizul Khan @ ISWA. Masha’ALlah this brother is very good and thorough. http://www.iswamd.org/
I know a few brothers (friends of my husband) who are seeking to get married, BUT… one is in Jordan and the other UAE.
If you are seeking an older gentlemen, there is one brother I know very well (black brother), well established and a good man from what I know of him. He doesn’t want any children (becuase his children are our age (20s and 30s).
Hook it Up Wayfarer. May Allah grant you tawfeeq!! Maybe one day you and bintWill will meet each other.
you’re serious. I kind of was saying it as a joke…I’m going through a stage where I can’t generally see men pass the stereotypes-the manipulator, the thug, the emotional roller coaster, the i don’t know what I want but I don’t want anyone else to have you, the i can’t show my emotions and leave you questioning how I feel about you all the time…it’s a trust issue and at one point I thought I had it figured out, but maybe not;–then there are the guys who think “the yes I’m all that and you should be grateful that I’m talking to you”–I know it’s sad years ago I was so hopeful then over time I went through the stages Margari discussed in another thread. It’s an inner struggle to be Muslim in America but to be a black woman, you know “strong black woman” whose supposed to withstand all the rejection gets to be too much. I’m at a point now where It’s difficult to expect anything from anybody. It’s partly my fault, sometimes I’m too ideal, but it’s funny when I was abroad, I became acquainted with a couple of brothers that everyone respected, they were Muslim and treated everyone with respect (regardless of whether others were Muslim or not), intelligent, attractive, spiritual and treated me like their sister for real. Then I return to America, it’s like hmmm o.k. I’ve seen grown men (like my Godfather) in the past who served their wives (she had rheumatoid arthritis and couldn’t cook or sew, so my Godfather would cook her dinner, cut up her food for her so she could easily pick it up with a fork) and he was in his 70’s and 80’s when I was growing up–men from that gneration in America were diffrent then. Nowadays if you’re lucky to be in a relationshp it’s like you may question a nice act as “game” and rightfully so, can’t be too careful. Show and prove. But when you witness those good respectful men first hand it’s hard to accept less, and if you are trying to be better you shouldn’t have to accept less. As hard as it may be I figured maybe that’s what Allah wants, just my complete surrender to Him…He’ll take care of it, in whatever way He wants…I just don’t know anymore. Wow, I just felt like I got up from a chaise, thanks for the session!!
wa alaikum as salaam wa ramatu Allah,
I understand, alhumdulillah my father and brothers set an excellent example of how men should so I expect that, plus more, from our muslim brothers.
It would be great to meet you (as well as Margari and other sisters) one day insha Allah.
My brother also set an excellent example. He’s always there for us!! I think we need to celebrate good examples and not reward or compete after poor specimens.
Insha’Allah BintWill we’ll meet each other. Keep me updated about conferences and conventions in the DC area.
Peace and light,
Observer, your statement was incoherent but you do sound like bigot with a light skinned superiority complex. Perhaps it bothers you that there are some Black women who are not waiting for few brothers that are available. Like Black women are supposed to exclude all other potential partners when Black men marrying interracial at twice the rates. You talk about slave mind and tried to critique my joking use of the term “negro” but you use the term Quadroon. That is from some racist slave legacy categorization, the same categories that would place me in the negro category. There’s plenty of light people who have self-hatred and plenty of dark skinned men and women who are confident with themselves and love the skin that they’re in.
Not at all am I a bigot, but I’m just so tired of hearing Dark-skinned Black-americans complain so much and blame every one for their insecurities and self-hatred!!! Whatever about the Quadroon terminology, I can say the same about you using, “Black”. Did that not come from the slave masters as well? Negro?? The Bottom line is you’re an angry Black Woman. If you were light-Skinned you would be normal and this blog wouldn’t even exist!!! The difference between me and you is that Arab, Pakistani, and African women come to me!! They worship that close to white skin!!! Also, I’m not married to a Black woman nor is black women my preference (not counting, mixed women) So hopefully this answered your question Ms Angry Black Nationalist!!!
P.S. do the right thing and breed appropriately so that your kids will come out normal and not angry and black!!! Live with this, it’s the only solution. Don’t make your kids suffer like you!!!
dark Sub humans??? yeah that wasn’t racist or anything…
and yall really wanna talk about ‘hating’ good Lord
That’s just plain silliness on their part. You can’t even take them seriously.
I’m wondering about the possibility of sisters marrying (oh no, I didn’t say it… well actually wrote it)… Outside the Muslim fold.
granted this is from a fatwah website (that is actually giving reasons for why Muslim women can not marry Muslim men) but at last for me, it was food for thought:
“In the classical period, and the existing situations on which the jurists ruled, there was no law that guaranteed women’s rights, as we understand them today. Some jurists opine that if a non-Muslim person of the book (male) is of such a character etc., that we can be sure that he will not enforce the wife to accept his religion, that conversely the woman is of such fortitude that she will not be swayed by falsehood, and that she makes it a part of the marriage contract that she will in no way be forced to accept a religion other than Islam, that the children will be brought up according to her beliefs, and that no negative image of Islam will be presented to her etc., then such a contract is allowable.”
of course doctrinally following such a path has its own set of problems, but no more than other alternatives (such as living in a polygamous setting). Don’t get me wrong, I’m not about marriage for the sake of marriage, but I feel like we need to evolve to fit our current needs. I will definitely need to look into the history of alternative rulings on this issue, but right now I’m certainly leaning towards this idea:
*If* the conditions were right, I would Marry a Person of the Book.
The situation must be really bad if simgle muslimahs are really considering marrying from outside the muslim fold. This is haram in all aspects and I don’t have time to quote here. Here in my area many of the sisters act like thier stuff doesn’t stink at all, which surprises me when I hear about all of the AA educated sisters that can’t find decent muslims brothers for marriage.
I’m responding to Raha. End of the day, there are a lot of muslims…who were born muslim, but don’t act “muslim”. The same can be true of any other religion. These people nitpick about stupid little things like length of hair, length of trousers…but lack basic ethics and humanity.
Look at Saud family…look at Saddam’s family…all claim to be muslim. Maybe it’s not my place to judge, but there’s got to be more to being muslim than just the title. I think people put too much stock in having the label “muslim” rather than concentrating on the characteristics of a muslim…which really aren’t all that different from most religions.
Find some one who speaks to the same core ethics as you, who lives by them, and despite what religion (or not) that person is I think you’ll be alright. Heck, the Taliban considers themselves muslims…how does that play out?
As Salaamu Alaikum: I know I am entering late here, but was surfing around your site Sis. I really enjoy your writing, Masha Allah.
Anyhow, it can be an age issue as well as a race issue. I am a white American Muslimah, converted from Judaism. I am college educated and work in corrections. I also went through it looking for a husband. Why? Because I was in my middle 50s at the time, i.e., not capable of making babies. But when someone in the community needed a green card, of course I got the “but Khadijah was so much older than our Messenger, pbuh” line.
Maybe working in Corrections is what scared them away, lol?
Walaikum salaam Safiyyah,
Age does play a factor. Within traditional circles, any woman over 25 and not married is considered a spinster. 50 year old brothers look for younger wives, even if they have kids. Lots of brothers don’t want women with kids. But if you’re a reasonable and bright woman, who’d want a brother like that. I think there may be a small niche for sisters past child bearing years. There are men who either divorced or widowed who are looking for a friend and companion, not a baby maker or maid. You deserve better than a green card marriage. You can do bad all by yourself. They key is to not settle, it really isn’t worth it.
I am an African American Muslim soon to be divorced from my non-Muslim and now hostile spouse. We were together for 8 years and I married her in prison so that we would not fornicate, since I was her para-pro. Since my release, she seems to complain about everything Islamic that I do and is an ingrate. Although I had a brush with the law, I am educated and come from 3 generations of Muslims. I am now seeking a spouse that is Muslim, regardless of race. Now let see if the sisters step up to the plate or use whatever prejudice to remain aloof. Allah Knows best. As-Salaamu-Alaikum
25+ and a spinster…who would have thought! i guess i’ve bought into it too b/c I have entirely abandoned the prospect of marriage at 26. subhanAllah! what really irks me are those “brothers” who refuse to even consider muslimahs at all! they paint us all w/a single brush and claim that we are frumpy or cannot keep up with their high maintanance expectations of a wife (HA! don’t they know true southern girls are raised to be trophy wives?). or my favorites are the ones who are so jaded that they cannot believe that you actually manage to “avoid haram”if you’re good looking (just b/c they chose not to). Now…it’s “wow, you’re not divorced? AND you have no kids?…what’s wrong with you?”. and to think i’ve saved myself all this while only to end up w/a guy who has sewn his oats and has kids? NO THANKS!
i mean, brother Yahya says it is “acting as if their stuff don’t stink” but perhps it’s just that more sisters are realizing that they ARE worth it and don’t feel as compelled to settle for less than what they expect? i’m not saying it is acceptable to parade around w/an attitude but if they are just holding out for the complete package- where is the harm in that? as a woman it takes so much to develop your internal and external beauty- what is wrong w/expecting to be w/a man who does the same and can appreciate all that you have to offer?
Raha: i am SO re-thinking the non-muslim thing. i never thought that it would come to that, but if times get desperate then desperate times may call for desperate actions. that’s all i’m saying, lol!
barakAllahu feekum 🙂
Salaam alaiku Said Ahmad,
I don’t know how long you have been out. You are looking for a spouse before you divorce is final. Was your marriage legal, or only Islamic? Normally I don’t give out unsolicited advise. But you did come to my blog saying that sisters should step up. You also implied that if a sister didn’t step to you that it is because of prejudice. I have written a lengthy article about ex-con marriage, so I think my views on this issue are quite clear.
I think it is important that you make sure you are on solid ground before getting married again. A lot of brothers are quick to getting married without taking stock of themselves and bettering themselves. A number of people are waiting longer to marry and not rushing into things. It may depend on the philosophy of the community that you are in. But from my observation, the rush to get married despite unstable circumstances spells disaster. Otherwise, you can find yourself in a bad situation again, and maybe even worse. In truth, financial problems are the source of many marital problems. Also, I think it is important to deal with any emotional issues that may have arisen from the years of being in a brutal prison system, as well as a painful marriage. Many sisters are not well equipped to deal with those issues. But hopefully your community, family, and friends are supportive and help provide you the resources to bounce back from that setback.
I feel you, I’m a firm advocate of dawa. Maybe we Muslim women are the key to converting able bodied, professional men since most of us who work and support ourselves interact in that environment. How many Muslim men brought in several women to the deen? Many of those women who converted for a Muslim guy end up being good Muslim women, and many don’t marry the guy that brought them in. We sisters need to step up our efforts. I guess the key is setting boundaries. But you have to be true to yourself and recognize that is lost and gained by taking such a course. I have had the conversation several times with many people, and even been called outside my name because I want a Muslim man and someone who loves this tradition as much as I do. I just can’t see how anyone could love me without loving something that is so integral to my being.
There’s a difference between wanting better and pure arrogance. fact of the matter is that you sisters are in a bad position at this point. Those women who wear thier accomplisments on thier shoulders whouls realize that all professional men are NOT impressed with just these qualities alone. When you portray yourselves in this way then the only men that you will attract are the brothers that just got out of jail, the one that sells incense and oils for a living, or the brother that doesn’t work but thinks he’s good because he’s always in the masjid praying and can spit hadeeth like it’s nothing.
From this the professional American brother will look for a foreign wife or other traditional woman over the American professional sister.
As salam alaikom everyone hope this post finds everyone in the best state of health and iman
i dont want to brag but what is wrong with the muslim brothers out there. i am 35,devoiced with 2 wonderful kids masha Allah and also looking for that good decent muslim brother.But as soon as they find out i hve 2 kids they just run a mile. no brother wants to step up to the plate and marry a devoiced sister anymore its like we have something wrong with us.
Come on brothers if we all followed the sunnah as the phpt Mohammed pbah did then NO sister who is older,devoiced,widowed or single would be left unmarried or finding it hard to get a good brother inshallah.
Your generalizations about women the attitude and character of educated women is really off based. It sounds like you have a lot of resentment towards women in general. Perhaps some counseling will help. But you really need to work through your issues. I’m even suprised that a Musim man would say that about Muslim women. this is especially the case with all the etiquette that prevents free mixing between the sexes and the encouragement of formalized courtship and guardians. Now, you try going up to the fathers and brothers of the immigrant sisters to ask their hand. They will grill you, expect a lot from you. They are not allowing their daughters to deal with the nonsense that AA women go through. On top of that, few are willing to marry their daughters to someone outside their ethnic group. But what is more important is that they will only allow their daughters to marry men who can support a familly, have good reputations, and good character. So, why should AA women settle for less?
Your comments also affirm my suspcion that sexism is rampant in the Muslim community, as well as gendered racism. These are problems that need to be dealt with on a real level. Imam Zaid Shakir did not bash Muslim women on this show. You can get the podcast online. Once you hear the show, why don’t you take your issue up with him. Maybe he can get you squared away.
Sweetflower I agree, that is a problem. Do any of the brothers have kids themselves? If they do and turn you down because you have kids, I think that smells like a serious double standard.
I think the double standard is that the Sista’s are allowed to have their standards but brothas are expected to marry the Sista’s(I mean the SISTA”S) even if she isn’t attractive(to their eye), incompatible, has several kids or has been married several times.
As a never married 27 year old brother should I settle just to make a sista happy?
Islam denounces racism yet brothers are harped on for marrying sisters who have a different heritage.
Culture? What is culture? I share more interest with the middle-class Pakistani and white sisters than the African-american sistas( who tended to be from working-class families and thought brothas like me were weird and nerdy)
Khalid, you are incoherent and your thoughts seem muddled. Who says you are to marry an unattractive Black woman? The only thing I can gather is that you consider most black women unattractive.
But what does come across is that your words are full of self loathing which is projected on Black women. I call it self loathing because you should still see yourself in those AA women. If black women are unattractive, so are the black women who struggled each generation so that you could come into being (I don’t now if your mother is black or even if you have black sisters or aunties). If they are unattractive, so are you. I wonder what they would say to you if they read your generalizaitons about Black women. I don’t know where you live, but I know dozens of eduated AA Muslim women with good character.
I am not going to denounce an AA brother for marrying someone who is not AA. But I will critique any assumptions and gendered racism that people like you draw upon to justify your decisions. In the meantime, you can vent your frustrations as you get shot down by all those Arab and Desi families who want 5-10,000 dowries, fully furnished homes, diamond rings, fully paid weddings with 300 guests for their daughters. Or maybe you can find a Moroccan sister who is just happy to get out of a country where there are little opportunities.
At this point, I will warn you to refrain from black women bashing. I don’t want to waste my readers’ time. I am especially concerned about young black women and girls reading my blog who may have their self perception negatively affected by your nonsense. If you continue with your incoherent ramblings and unsubstantiated claims, I will edit or delete your comments. They are just plain offensive and counterproductive to positive dialogue. They are really just your incoherent rants and not really worth my time or anyone else’s.
Khalid, just marry who you want. Problem solved.
I’m surprised and puzzled at your response. No where in there was I bashing AA women as a whole. Nor did I make any assumptions. Nor did I generalize about black women.(If you think I did, point it out in my passage and maybe I could further enlighten you on what I mean)I was only revealing my own personal experiences. Perhaps you take my first sentence to be a generalization about black women but a careful reading of it will reveal that I was presenting a hypothetical. My post was a response to the general vibe that I got from this post. That black men should only marry within the available pool of african-american women in their jamaat rather than consider the entire Ummah when fishing for the mate. And my point is that this is totally unnecessary and unfair. The shortage of black males is not my fault. But the truth is, no matter the nation, people or culture, women will always outnumber men and men will always out marry more than women(with the exception of Asian-americans. But there is always exceptions) Why should I feel bad if I happen to marry a non-black? Why should I settle for someone I may not really like or get along with but she’s black and available.
I had a friend in college who was totally respected by the blacks and whites and was a generally great person. Since freshmen year he had forged a great friendship with a white classmate yet when it seemed that the relationship might have gotten closer, he pulled back for fear of how the “sisters” took it. This was obviously someone he was compatible with yet he(as well as many of the other brothers) were made to feel guilty for dating non-black. And I was even told by a biracial girl who was dating a white Latino that because there was more sisters than brothas we shouldn’t date outside the race. I’m sorry, but thats BS. And the same attitude floats around my jamaat.
I will marry whomever I find to be compatible, pious, attractive, kind etc. She may or may not be african-american.
Perhaps I should have constructed my post a little differently. Basically, I’m expected by some to marry an African-american even if a non -african-american maybe better suited for me. I don’t think race or class should trumped piety, compatibility and yes, attractiveness.
And in my community I have been offered to correspond with Pakistani sisters by their parents. They are not all as closed-minded as some would think.
I would really like for you to explain how my words come off as “self-loathing”. What is the “self” What do you know about “myself”. I define who I am and the racial aspect of me is the most signficant aspect of me. Matter of fact, if you were to ask me to describe myself by way of a hierarchal list(with number 1 being the most important) my race would be near the bottom.
Why, because race really has to essential attributes about itself. It is a shallow conjecture. Same with what often is passed off as culture. I firmly believe the the elites(which includes in middle-class African Americans) of the world, educated in the western paradigm have more in common than they do with the more working class members of their respected cultures and nations.
But most people don’t realize this. Culture is so much more than you language, dress and manners.
BTW, please, please explain how what I said was offensive or so terrible. What unsubstantiated claims did I make. Yes, in my jamaat most of the AA sisters thought I was weird and really shared few interest with me. I know because I grew up with most of them. But this is not a generalization. I corresponded with one AA sister who shared many of my attributes and we got along oh so excellently. I pursued her hard, even after being rebuffed once but in the end she just wasn’t ready for marriage.
If she called me today saying she was ready to marry I would. But the fact that she is African-american is to me incidental. It was her piety, beauty and character and its compatibility to mine that was most important.
I’ve noticed that you seem to make a lot of assumptions about the male posters to your blog. I saw your response to Yahya and thought it wholly unwarranted not to mention the bad psychological analysis you performed on mine. I have no intention to offend but I just thinks its bad form to make assumptions about peoples motives or thoughts. We’re having a discussion here so people will use many techniques to get their point across( analogy, metaphor, models, ßocratic questioning) and some may appear to state something that they really don’t mean only to make a point. Don’t take it so personal. To me, stuff about “self loathing” and seeing myself in all black women, or analysing the motives of black men who marry across “racial” lines is just psycho-babble and belongs in the discredited annuls of critical theory. Just my opinion.
You seem to be making assumptions about the purpose of the post in general.
The program about the shortage of Muslim men that aired a few months back was not about the shortage of Black Muslim men, but the shortage of Muslim men in general. The issue is affecting Muslim women who are educated from all ethnic groups. This is an issue that affects Arabs and Desi girls too. Many of their men prefer to go back to their respective countries and find a woman who they deem as untainted by American values. In many communities, educated and professional Muslim women are having a hard time finding a suitable match. Perhaps if you had framed your argument similarly it would have come off better. I try not to make broad generalizations that play on stereotypes about Black men. I expect the same from my commentators. No where did I say that Black men should be obliged to Black women.
As for my dispute with Yahya, it is a different argument. He accused educated women of arrogance. It sounds like he has personal issues. He argued that importing foreign women who he sees as better choices for mates. We are talking about men who go to places like Malaysia or Morocco to find a wife. Imam Zaid Shakir stated in the program that American Muslim brothers should first consider American Muslim sisters before going abroad. I have seen several marriages where the men speak no Arabic and the women speak no English. I have seen a couple of times when the women cannot read or write and when they were mistreated by their spouse, someone had to go help them fill out forms. There are educated Moroccan women and love matches. I am not critiquing those matches. But I am critiquing the view that inherently American born Muslim women are bad spouses.
Since you wanted to know what I found to be offensive and counter productive to the dialogue, I will cut and them. These are the ones that seemed to generalize:
“I think the double standard is that the Sista’s are allowed to have their standards but brothas are expected to marry the Sista’s(I mean the SISTA”S) even if she isn’t attractive(to their eye), incompatible, has several kids or has been married several times.
As a never married 27 year old brother should I settle just to make a sista happy?”
Here is the stereotype of the Black welfare mother. Who says you have to marry someone you don’t want to? Who are these people that aren’t allowing you do have standards? Your statement also implied that Black women aren’t attractive. Maybe it wasn’t written well and came off that way.
“I share more interest with the middle-class Pakistani and white sisters than the African-american sistas( who tended to be from working-class families and thought brothas like me were weird and nerdy)”
This statement implies that you share more in common with middle class Pakistani and white women than middle class African American women. You assumption is that there are no Middle Class African American Muslim women. Sure they may not be in your area, but they exist. But the general tone of your comment was that there aren’t any attractive or Middle class Black Muslim women at all, so White and Immigrant Muslim women are better choices. Also, your denial that Black culture exists is suspect. On the other hand, I would argue that I share more in common with a White American convert than an immigrant Muslim. It is not about color or race. There is also a class issue.
I am glad you clarified. Perhaps you need to work on your writing, because you have to take into consideration the implication of what you write. Just know that by posting anything on the web, your writing will be critiqued, analyzed, and challenged bit by bit and even read into in ways that you may not have expected. The same happens to me with anything I write. It is called discourse. We exchange, I clarify, and often I have to change my views about a given topic after someone brings to light the complexity. But if what you write something that resonates some gendered racism vibes, I’m going to rip that apart. You may not be aware of how something you write smacks of a gendered stereotype, I have a right to call it out and challenge it. But if it is based upon your personal experiences and you refrain from generalizing, I am going to respect your opinions and the struggle of your expereinces. I am especially going to respect your opinions and statements if they come off as sincere and if your statements do not devalue me as a human being.
I have already stated that I do not condemn anyone for marrying outside their race. You seem to fail to acknowledge that. I am not trying to tell you what to do. But I am encouraing everyone to think about what they do and why.
As for your analysis of the Frankfurt school, also known as Critical theory, as largely discredited I find that little assertion problematic. I don’t see where that applies in this discussion? What does Adorno, Habermas, Marcuse, Benjamin and their students have to do with this discussion on race? Perhaps you are talking about critical race theory. But I wonder who you think has successfully discredited folks like bell Hooks, Paul Gilroy, and others.
Well, I’m glad some of that was cleared up. I guess I was responding moreso to some of the responses to the article and my own interpretations of what was being written.
When I said I had more in common with some of the middle class non-blacks in my Jamaat that was based on personal exprience. I know there are middle-class AA Muslim women.(My blood sisters for one) I even sought the hand of an AA Muslim women who I found to share many of my values, goals and interests.
I brought that up as an example of how race is not necessarily a proxy for compatibility.
As far as my stance on culture, yeah I believe in it but the definition of culture is so fuzzy and people use it differently.
The modern person is such a complex organism and the strains that make up his/her personality and habits come from all over the place. We are such self-defining creatures that nowadays its hard to say what culture one is apart of. I’m apart of the American Muslim culture, the university student culture, hip hop culture, the American male culture(football on sunday) etc. So sometimes when I encounter another AA(whether male or female) one of the few things we have in common is our shared heritage as descents of Africans in America( and sometimes I run into near mirror images of myself) But how much this heritage informs my actions or values is ambigous. The influence my heritage has on me is very context defined, coming up mainly when the topic of racial injustice is on the table. Like most AA I am hyper-aware of any signs of racial injustice in my life and others. I also share many of my mannerisms and speech with other AA. I also share many mannerisms with other non-blacks who grew up in my region. I also meet AA’s from other parts of the country with wholly different mannerisms and speech, not to mention the differences in values and interest that I find among individual AA’s. So race, culture, religion and language don’t always(rarely) match up. I guess that was the point of my mention of culture.
As far as my jab at critical theory is that it itself seems to get bogged down in there own dense hermeunetics and come off as obtuse. They offer motives for human action that seem to have little footing in the more rigorous discipline of psychology.
Okay, really I’m just bitter for reading all that stuff some of philosophy and sociology classes. Considering that I’m a grad student in a psyche dept. that is somewhat influenced by them maybe I should shut up.
Now this is the type of dialogue I’m interested in engaging in.
I see, a pysch student. You’re pretty hard core into the human sciences. No wonder why you take issues with the humanities. I understand your bitterness towards postmodern and cultural studies. Your field has survived the postmodernists accusations that fields like pscychology, sociology, and political science are psuedo scientists. Historians have long given up any claims that they were involved in social science. So nothing I say is psuedo science, but rather interpretation and analysis. And I an open to have any of my truth claims pushed.
I now understand where you are coming from. I suppose that’s what happens when we read and comment on stuff late at night. I admit to being in a kind of nasty mood after reading Yahya’s negative comments and some other conversations that I had with Black Muslim men educated African American muslim women.
I agree with you on the culture thing, I believe it is a creative process and is really based upon our relationship with others. I reject notions that there is a monolithic African American or Black Diasporic culture. In the same way, I don’t assume that just because someone is Muslim that we are going to relate and be compatible. But I find that many immigrant Muslims make the culture arguments all the time. When I was in a discussion about interracial relationships in the Muslim community the Persian American and Arab Muslims argued marriages where the couple had different cultures were more difficult. I pointed out that did not preclude Middle Eastern men from marrying white women. I also argued that African Americans share so much with White Americans, so that argument was pretty thin. This argument that many immigrant Muslims make differs from the argument that some brothers who marry women from overseas who argue that women from the third world make better wives than American women. Some men argue that particular groups of women are better spouses than others. Each community has its pathologies, and some feel that marrying outside of one’s community you will be able to escape those pathologies. But I think that when you are in an interracial relationship, you trade one set of issues for another. Is one better or ideal? The Quran tells us that Allah created people into different tribes and nations so that we can get to know each other.
just to throw a spanner into to the works, it is evident that there is a shortage of practising muslim brothers, especially ones who follow the quran and the sunnah and do not blind follow. do you think that some sisters who could potentially be 2nd, 3rd, or 4th wifes still go looking for that “perfect muslim brother” in the dunya men are outnumbered by women by 1-3 or 1-4. dr zakir naik states that polygny is the solution to this problem, what are your views on that?
hmmm. I think I have to put the polygny as a game plan that even falls behind the marrying a non-Muslim scenario mentioned above: the absolute Last case scenario.
Maybe it’s because I spent my early childhood in a polygamous marriage gone awry, but I really have my doubts about Muslim women living in the Developed world being able to make it work (generally speaking, that is… I know that plenty work out just fine, Muslim and non-Muslim ones). Polygamy is dying trend even in most Muslim countries, Are times really so hard that we have to resurrect it here and now?
as muslims we have to abide by the laws that our lord has sent down to us. we use the quran and the sunnah of our beloved prophet(saw) to guide us. as the hadith of the khutbah tu hajar on the authority of umar ibn al khattab, our bleoved prophet said “verily the best of talks is the book of allah, and the best of guidance is the guidance of prophet”. some very powerful words, the rules and regualtions that we have in the quran and sunnah can cater for alot of the problmes we have in the world and society today. sister it is not soething that we have to ressurect as it is evident in many countries and how you deal with it is a test as everything is a test fro allah, so for the sisters who can bite there tongue and be 2nd wifes etc do you not think the reward that waits for your patience is something that we cannot put a dimension to? it is practically impossible for every sister to find a good brother as there are far more women then men? so how do we deal with it? i tell you how we can……in the book of allah 4:3 If you deem it best for the orphans, you may marry their mothers – you may marry two, three, or four. If you fear lest you become unfair, then you shall be content with only one, or with what you already have. Additionally, you are thus more likely to avoid financial hardship.
Ibrahim, I am well aware of the fact that the Koran allows polygamy. Nonetheless, polygamy as a practice is a dying trend in many Muslim countries (probably because most men in today’s world can not afford it, and many women, Muslim or not, would not particularly encourage it). Thus, while an accepted trend, it is practiced by a minority of Muslims (hence, my terming it a dying trend). Polygamy is permissible/even encouraged in certain situations, but it not a religious duty, we have choice as to whether or not to do it.
As I stated earlier, My parents were in a polygamous marriage and I can definitely say that that is not something I want for myself. I can’t see this as any sort of panacea because I know some of the realities of what can happen especially when both women are relatively educated and know they have other options, when the man dies or when the brother is not financially able to have more than one wife.
I’m kind of over the polygamy debate. You can search my old entries and comments to see my current stance. My stance comes not from the ideals in and of themselves, but seeing how people practice them.
Polygamy, an idea I flirted with but the application of it, in this contemporary era seems nearly impossible.
Sadly it’s situations like this that drive women to marry non muslim brothers or worst leave the deen altogether. I’ve spoken to sisters who’ve told me they found it easier to find men black, white, hispanic etc when they were not muslim and were pursued by good, educated men of all races. Maybe a new system to help muslim women needs to be in place?
I knew bunches of brothers in Tempe, AZ who wanted to get married in the worst way but couldn’t find any Muslimahs to marry.
Go west, young women!
this is a very important issue.
I agree with Khalid and Yahya to a certain extent, however this issue of racism cannot be ignored.
I would dare say racism is the worst plague of the Muslim community today. When it rears its ugly head, it’s just ugly.
I mean the way some arabs and pakistanis always get so happy when there is a white convert around. When a white person converts they are so much more welcomed than the blacks. There have been white bloggers that have blogged about this as well, so it’s not just in the imagination.
May Allah guide this Ummah.
Yes, blame me. I had only voiced the concerns of many brothers that have had experiences with sisters here in America. Of course I know of many nice educated AA sisters in real life. But on the blogosphere, the high and mighty attitudes which almost equal snobbery are quite prevalent.
Also, please stop trying to portray muslim men who get foreign wives as being opportunists or the kind of men who prey on poor uneducated women. I’ve seen too many American muslims sisters(of all races) being used also. Only a fool(sister or brother) would marry someone who only sees them as a meal ticket or green card out of misery.
Please Yahya, plenty of brothers have high and mighty attitudes. Right now, the brothers control the dominant discussion in the masajid. They run the minbar, they run the presses, the run the lecture circuit. Sisters have little recourse, but the blogosphere to air their concerns. And the minute we say something you don’t like, so many of you try to stomp that out.
Of course, there are a number of brothers who marry women from overseas with good intentions. But a number of brothers have negative attitudes about educated women. The one thing that people can’t take away from anyone else is their education (whether formal or informal). So, when brothers go around slamming sisters or being disparaging, it is really disheartening. The reality is that there are women in tough situations and finding a mate who is not intimidated by then, but sees the qualities that a Muslim man should look for in a Muslim wife (taqwa-God fear, akhlaq-good character, patience, intelligence, kindess, and sincerity). But in truth, a lot of brothers are sexist. And a woman who can articulate her opinions and provide sound counsel, and be a good friend to a man is considered too much of a threat.
And you’re right. Plenty of American sisters get used to. There are brothers who see some educated women as a meal ticket. I know of some women who are supporting their husbands while their unemployed husband goes and finds another wife. I also know of American women who are used by foreign men who see them as a meal ticket. People are deceived in a lot of different ways. Anyone can be self-deluded. So all those brothers who don’t think that the green card doesn’t matter when they go to the third world can stay self-deluded. And they can live merry lives, it’s not for me to bust their bubble.
maybe we dont have the same issues in the northeast because people of color, no matter their religion, seem to stick closer to their own communities. it seems that the culture of california is already very integrated, so there is no reason to think the color issues would go away just because the people involved are muslims. if a black man has been socialized to believe that white skinned women are beautful then he can be as christian or muslim or buddhist as he wants, and he still wont chose a woman that looks like him for a wife. i think the issue should be to also teach about history and knowledge of self (as is done at our masjid) so that a black man choosing a black women will come naturally and easily, as it should. most of the sisters at my masjid are married. some brothers have more than one wife and are still looking. they just love the sisters!
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I agree with your sentiments but I am also a product of international development in the US and I strongly believe in the importance of an educated Muslima. In fact, I strongly believe in the importance of a strong Muslima in the condition that I am trying to develop a sustainable construct that can be beneficial to Muslim’s across the world. However, I have yet to meet a Muslima with a condition that allows worldly development and understands the concerns of Muslims globally. However, I DO love the “sistas” of the Muslima community as they equally help the development of the Muslim woman image in the US :).
I equally despise the reaction of : Margari Aziza Hill. Terrible and equally conditional of the US against dark-skinned Muslimas.